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I'm sure this must have been discussed before, but I don't remember seeing it. The latest issue of Rock and Ice (in an article about skinny ropes by Clyde Soles) shows a single overhand knot being used to join two rappel ropes. I've never seen this before. Does anyone have any experience with this knot? It's certainly easy to tie, and the claim is that it's less prone to snagging, easy to untie, and works well for ropes of disparate diameters. Why use anything else? For those of you that don't have the article handy, the knot is tied by holding the two ends of the rope in your hand with the ropes parallel and the ends pointing in the same direction. Treat the two ropes as if you are holding a single rope end and tie a single overhand knot in the end. That's it! It is certainly simpler and quicker than a double fisherman's or a figure eight and it is pretty easy to visually check. What's the catch and why doesn't everyone use this knot? I'm a little skeptical about trying new rappel knots as several years ago I saw a reccomendation in one of the rags for using a square knot backed up by a double fisherman's. The Idea was that the square knot which was very easy to untie would take the weight, while the D.F. would act as a safety backup. The problem which I discovered on a long rappel was that unless it is weighted, the D.F. has a disconcerting tendency to untie itself and had to be constantly be rechecked. ---------------------------------- Walt Heenan climber@freemarket.com http://www.albany.net/~wheenan (518) 463-9830
Walt Heenan wrote: > > I'm sure this must have been discussed before, but I don't remember > seeing it. It has been discussed to death. I am sure you are trolling, but I am procrastinating starting work, so what the heck. I've never seen this before. Does anyone > have any experience with this knot? Lots of people. I'm one. >It's certainly easy to tie, and > the claim is that it's less prone to snagging, easy to untie, and > works well for ropes of disparate diameters. Why use anything else? If your two ropes vary considerably in diameter, the supposedly it could come undone. SNiP What's the > catch and why doesn't everyone use this knot? Because not everyone feels confident in it and it is not recommended by everyone. Some books and/or guides use two figure eights, others use fishermans. Its a great knot, quick, doesn't use 4 feet of each rope to tie, and is really fun to freak out your beginning partner with. Climb safe, use what your comfortable with, Cheers, Frank
Walt Heenan (walt@freemarket.com) wrote: : I'm sure this must have been discussed before, but I don't remember : seeing it. The latest issue of Rock and Ice (in an article about : skinny ropes by Clyde Soles) shows a single overhand knot being used : to join two rappel ropes. I've never seen this before. Does anyone : have any experience with this knot? It's certainly easy to tie, and [skipped] : It is certainly simpler and quicker than a double fisherman's or a : figure eight and it is pretty easy to visually check. What's the : catch and why doesn't everyone use this knot? For the same reason you don't want to use it. Because it looks SO DAMN SCARY! :)))) I've seen people using it, however I prefer myself double fisherman. I know that it's just mental...:)) -- Mike
In article <32756934.1868656@news.albany.net>, walt@freemarket.com (Walt Heenan) wrote: > I'm sure this must have been discussed before, but I don't remember > seeing it. The latest issue of Rock and Ice (in an article about > skinny ropes by Clyde Soles) shows a single overhand knot being used > to join two rappel ropes. I've never seen this before. Does anyone > have any experience with this knot? It is a fine knot. Trustworthy when the ropes are of the same diameter. And if it works for Ken Doll, it works for me! It is a bonding knot. The new parter gives you this look of approval when you non-chalantly hand him/her the overhand knotted rope. On rappel! Brutus says: "You could die that way" everytime he takes off. Most reassuring. I trust it and I value my life. -- Inez Drixelius Berkeley, California
In article <3275C9E4.1994@chattanooga.net> TradMan, tradman@chattanooga.net writes: >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I have not yet received a reply, but I would definitely recommend >NOT using an overhand knot to tie your rappel ropes together at the top. >Use the overhand to tie the BOTTOM of the ropes to prevent rapping off >of the ends. A much more substantial knot is required to safely tie the >tops together to properly join the ropes for rappelling, in my opinion. >If I receive a reply I will post the information. > >TradMan I did this with a rope the other day, using an ATC as my device. Rapped about 4/5's of the length of the halved rope. When I got down to the bottom, my rope looked like a hundred eels having an orgy. I can still hear it out in the garage, flopping around trying to release the mother of all kinks, the following day. : ) I now tie a knot in each end, but do not tie them together. Mike Yukish Applied Research Lab may106@psu.edu http://elvis.arl.psu.edu/~may106/
In article <55503l$gvf@hecate.umd.edu>, Mike Margolis <margolis@hcs.umd.edu> wrote: >Walt Heenan (walt@freemarket.com) wrote: >: It is certainly simpler and quicker than a double fisherman's or a >: figure eight and it is pretty easy to visually check. What's the >: catch and why doesn't everyone use this knot? > >For the same reason you don't want to use it. Because it looks >SO DAMN SCARY! :)))) Note that it's recommended you leave at least of foot of tails on that knot; ...another scarey feature. I think I discovered last weekend that a tripple fishermans is easier to utie than a double, after it's been loaded. Does anyone agree/disagree? -- -Wayne Trzyna trzyna@CS.ColoState.EDU
In article <32756934.1868656@news.albany.net>, walt@freemarket.com says... > >The latest issue of Rock and Ice (in an article about >skinny ropes by Clyde Soles) shows a single overhand knot being used >to join two rappel ropes. I've never seen this before.....What's the >catch and why doesn't everyone use this knot? The catch is: THERE IS NO CATCH (Har!) I.E. this knot has been found to be perfectly safe (1 million climbers can't be wrong!) when used as directed and least likely to hang up on the pulldown. -- Hank Moon PMI-Petzl Distribution, Inc. hmoon@pmi-petzl.com 706.764.1437 ext. 274 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCLAIMER: Unless otherwise indicated, this correspondence is personal opinion and NOT an official statement of PMI-Petzl Distribution, Inc. -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Walt Heenan wrote: > > I'm sure this must have been discussed before, but I don't remember > seeing it. The latest issue of Rock and Ice (in an article about > skinny ropes by Clyde Soles) shows a single overhand knot being used > to join two rappel ropes. I've never seen this before. There is in some obscure corner of my web site a discussion about this knot which has been here for a few years. In short: 1. I have used only this knot for five years, except when my partner was fast enough to grab the ropes before me :-) 2. I have yet to see someone who doesn't look at that knot with a varying degree of apprehension the first time. Tuan. -- Quang-Tuan LUONG at SRI +1(415)859-5138 luong@ai.sri.com photographs in The Mountain Gallery at: http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~qtluong/gallery/
Walt said: >The latest issue of Rock and Ice (in an article about >skinny ropes by Clyde Soles) shows a single overhand >knot being used to join two rappel ropes. I've never >seen this before. Does anyone have any experience >with this knot? After I was convinced that it was safe by a ~700 pound drop test, I've used it for about 6 years and many raps. It works fine and is THE recommended knot for rapping by the UIAA. I've used it for combos including 11/7mm with no problems, even loaded with a heavy pack. Some of my partners balk so I let them have their way. Mad Dog FatCrak4Me@aol.com What? No, it's not about climbing, silly !
My instincts tell me that an over-hand is just too simple and thin to hold. After all, I learned to tie the damn thing in kindergarten!. I guess the main thing that makes me uneasy is the way it gets split apart. But If y'all say it's good, I'll have to try it (close to the ground, though, thank you very much). I climbed with a new partner this summer who always uses a Carrick Bend. He has used it for years as a commercial fisherman and hauls tremendous loads with it. He likes it cause it's flat as a Figure - 8, but the ends come out in a way that bounces off grabbies. I like the fact that the knot is all in-line and isn't being pulled apart. The big thing for him is that he ties it so much that he can do it on a freezing, pitching deck of the boat with his eyes closed. To each his own, I suppose. On Rappel, Alan Lindsay, Salt Lake City AKLindsay1@AOL.com
Mike Yukish wrote: > > In article <3275C9E4.1994@chattanooga.net> TradMan, > tradman@chattanooga.net writes: > >----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > I have not yet received a reply, but I would definitely recommend > >NOT using an overhand knot to tie your rappel ropes together at the top. > >Use the overhand to tie the BOTTOM of the ropes to prevent rapping off > >of the ends. A much more substantial knot is required to safely tie the > >tops together to properly join the ropes for rappelling, in my opinion. > >If I receive a reply I will post the information. > > > >TradMan > I recently read somewhere that the overhand knot is preferred to join the abseil ropes together because it has a smaller profile to get caught on edges when pulling the rope... Strength wise, the overhand knot is supposedly about 50-60% of the rope strength. Given a 20kN breaking strength of a rope,this leaves at least one tonne. During abseil, the forces generated are roughly body-weight, unless you are a stupid no-fear person who jumps down the rope, whereby I would expect 2-3 times body weight... Rodders.
In article <inezdrex-291096100311@goodman5.lsa.berkeley.edu>, inezdrex@uclink.berkeley.edu (Inez Drixelius) writes: |> In article <32756934.1868656@news.albany.net>, walt@freemarket.com (Walt |> Heenan) wrote: |> |> > I'm sure this must have been discussed before, but I don't remember |> > seeing it. The latest issue of Rock and Ice (in an article about |> > skinny ropes by Clyde Soles) shows a single overhand knot being used |> > to join two rappel ropes. I've never seen this before. Does anyone |> > have any experience with this knot? |> |> It is a fine knot. Trustworthy when the ropes are of the same diameter. |> And if it works for Ken Doll, it works for me! It is a bonding knot. The |> new parter gives you this look of approval when you non-chalantly hand |> him/her the overhand knotted rope. On rappel! Brutus says: "You could |> die that way" everytime he takes off. Most reassuring. |> I love the look of incredulity when my partners see that I've used an overhand to tie the rap ropes together. "Uh, you go first Steve." Seriously though, its a good knot when ropes are of the same diameter and it unties easily enough after being weighted. Give it a try. -- * || steve_shostek@mentorg.com * * (.sig went climbing) || Mentor Graphics * * || Wilsonville, OR * * || *
About using the overhand, Tuan sez: >2. I have yet to see someone who doesn't look at that knot >with a varying degree of apprehension the first time. Agreed. It's really good to play it out to the fullest, like if a storm is approaching and you're preparing to bail. (Will this help to further my position as a lousy partner?) Hurriedly tie an overhand and thread the anchor all while acting scared and talking about the storm and how you have to get down fast. When your partner asks about the knot, say you heard it's an OK knot and that you'll go first to test it. When you're about 20' down, yell up that it feels like the knot is slipping... When you get to the anchor, yell up that it must be OK cause it held your weight. Bonus points for rapping off of knotted, weathered web. Mad Dog
In article <3276B840.2781@ai.sri.com> Quang-Tuan Luong <luong@ai.sri.com> writes: >Walt Heenan wrote: >> >1. I have used only this knot for five years, except when my >partner was fast enough to grab the ropes before me :-) >2. I have yet to see someone who doesn't look at that knot >with a varying degree of apprehension the first time. I used it often(last 16 years), when my partner was not looking or with a similar minded partner. I also try to tell them that a knot does not have be 'big' to be safe ! IMHO, key is to tighten them properly and leave about 9-12" of tail. I often use it with a 10.5 and 9. A big plus is easier to untie, especially in the frozen winter when untying a double fisherman with frozen finger severly affect the post climb temperament. later, -saumyen later, -Saumyen -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Saumyen Guha | Princeton University Internet: sguha@phoenix.princeton.edu | Civil Eng., E. Quad. Bellnet : (609)258-5037(o), (609)497-7693(h)| Prospect Avenue
TradMan wrote: > Below is a copy of a letter that I E-mailed Rock and Ice tonight: > > Hello Rock and Ice, > > I was enjoying my newly arrived copy of R&I #76 and came > across a bit of information that could be very dangerous if interpreted > incorrectly by lesser experienced climbers. On page 114, in the midst > of a rope comparison article, is a group of 3 photos of two ropes tied > with an overhand knot. The accompanying text says, "The Overhand Knot is > the best choice for joining two rappel ropes.,etc..." > I assume the meaning of this statement is to use the overhand > knot to join the LOOSE ends(to prevent rapping off of the ends) and not > the UPPER ends of the ropes as would be required at the top of a > two-rope rappel; the current standard being the double or triple > fishermen's knot(sometimes called the grapevine knot) backed up by > knotting the tails also. What the hell, let the flaming begin. I guess you are one of those "lesser experienced climbers". Various people I know use the overhand knot shown in the photos for the upper ends of the ropes, myself included. There are many advantages over a double fishermans knot and no disadvantages that I can think of at the moment. It is very quick and easy, it is also easy to untie, the knot is much less likely to get stuck while pulling your ropes. Try it, you'll like it! BTW this knot has been discussed quite a bit on this newsgroup and I understand it is widely used in Europe as well. Sorry Tradman, you are wrong. Better hope R&I doesn't publish your letter. It could be rather embarrassing! Andy -- ******************************************************* Andrew Gale The Scripps Research Institute agale@scripps.edu La Jolla, CA **********http://minihelix.mit.edu/andy/ ***************
In article <3275C9E4.1994@chattanooga.net>, TradMan <tradman@chattanooga.net> writes: > Walt Heenan wrote: > > The latest issue of Rock and Ice > > shows a single overhand knot being used > > to join two rappel ropes. I've never seen this before. Does anyone > > have any experience with this knot? It's certainly easy to tie, and > > the claim is that it's less prone to snagging, easy to untie, and > > works well for ropes of disparate diameters. Why use anything else? > > Below is a copy of a letter that I E-mailed Rock and Ice tonight: > > Hello Rock and Ice, > > I was enjoying my newly arrived copy of R&I #76 and came > across a bit of information that could be very dangerous if interpreted > incorrectly by lesser experienced climbers. On page 114, in the midst > of a rope comparison article, is a group of 3 photos of two ropes tied > with an overhand knot. The accompanying text says, "The Overhand Knot is > the best choice for joining two rappel ropes.,etc..." > I assume the meaning of this statement is to use the overhand > knot to join the LOOSE ends(to prevent rapping off of the ends) and not > the UPPER ends of the ropes as would be required at the top of a > two-rope rappel; the current standard being the double or triple > fishermen's knot(sometimes called the grapevine knot) backed up by > knotting the tails also. I stand behind Rock & Ice. The overhand knot as pictured is approved by the UIAA for joining the upper ends of rappel ropes. European's use it all the time, it just isn't as common on this side of the pond. Just because it's safe doesn't mean you HAVE to use it. I've been comfortable with the double fisherman's for years, I see no reason to switch. Whenever I've gottan a rope snagged on a rappel, it has always been the end that gets stuck, not the knot. -George
TradMan wrote: > > Below is a copy of a letter that I E-mailed Rock and Ice tonight: > > Hello Rock and Ice, > > I was enjoying my newly arrived copy of R&I #76 and came > across a bit of information that could be very dangerous if interpreted > incorrectly by lesser experienced climbers. On page 114, in the midst > of a rope comparison article, is a group of 3 photos of two ropes tied > with an overhand knot. The accompanying text says, "The Overhand Knot is > the best choice for joining two rappel ropes.,etc..." > I assume the meaning of this statement is to use the overhand > knot to join the LOOSE ends(to prevent rapping off of the ends) and not > the UPPER ends of the ropes as would be required at the top of a > two-rope rappel; the current standard being the double or triple > fishermen's knot(sometimes called the grapevine knot) backed up by > knotting the tails also. > If anyone misunderstood this differentiation, the potential for > danger is obvious. While I immediately knew the meaning intended in the > photos, as would most anyone else, I felt that I should at least express > my concerns. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I have not yet received a reply, but I would definitely recommend > NOT using an overhand knot to tie your rappel ropes together at the top. > Use the overhand to tie the BOTTOM of the ropes to prevent rapping off > of the ends. A much more substantial knot is required to safely tie the > tops together to properly join the ropes for rappelling, in my opinion. > If I receive a reply I will post the information. > > TradMan Uh-oh... Better brace yourself for a toasting. Scabby
TradMan <tradman@chattanooga.net> wrote: > Hello Rock and Ice, > > I was enjoying my newly arrived copy of R&I #76 and came > across a bit of information that could be very dangerous if interpreted > incorrectly by lesser experienced climbers. On page 114, in the midst > of a rope comparison article, is a group of 3 photos of two ropes tied > with an overhand knot. The accompanying text says, "The Overhand Knot is > the best choice for joining two rappel ropes.,etc..." > I assume the meaning of this statement is to use the overhand > knot to join the LOOSE ends(to prevent rapping off of the ends) and not > the UPPER ends of the ropes as would be required at the top of a > two-rope rappel; the current standard being the double or triple > fishermen's knot(sometimes called the grapevine knot) backed up by > knotting the tails also. Nope, I meant what it says...the overhand is the best knot of all for tying two rappel ropes together at the top. I leave tails at least 9" long and snug the knot as tight as I can. Your so-called standard knot is much more prone to jamming in cracks, is a pain in the ass to untie, and certainly doesn't need a backup. BTW I had an 11 mm and 7 mm (worst likely case) connected with an overhand and they finally broke at about 1800 lbs. without slipping. YMMV. It's a bad idea to connect the bottom of the rappel ropes together; that prevents them from unwinding and results in nasty tangles. A better way IMHO is to put big knots in the end of each rope...just don't use figure-8's and remember to untie them before pulling the rap ;-)
Haven't seen the R&I picture. Is the knot in question an overhand bend, or a side-by-side overhand? Eric (ecoppock@aol.com)
: TradMan wrote: : > : > Below is a copy of a letter that I E-mailed Rock and Ice tonight: : > : > Hello Rock and Ice, : > : > I was enjoying my newly arrived copy of R&I #76 and came : > across a bit of information that could be very dangerous if interpreted : > incorrectly by lesser experienced climbers. On page 114, in the midst : > of a rope comparison article, is a group of 3 photos of two ropes tied : > with an overhand knot. The accompanying text says, "The Overhand Knot is : > the best choice for joining two rappel ropes.,etc..." : > <snip> R&I is correct (you may want to check your info next time before flaming them!): This knot is UIAA approved for joining two rappel ropes at the load bearing end. It can be your safest bet in situations where a rope snag is a big risk because it is the least likely knot to get stuck. Just for further information, some people are tempted to tie instead an overhand figure-8 (as opposed to follow-through figure-8), which I've heard has been shown to be not as safe as the simple overhand shown by R&I in terms of coming untied. Lanier
Walt Heenan wrote: > The latest issue of Rock and Ice > shows a single overhand knot being used > to join two rappel ropes. I've never seen this before. Does anyone > have any experience with this knot? It's certainly easy to tie, and > the claim is that it's less prone to snagging, easy to untie, and > works well for ropes of disparate diameters. Why use anything else? > > It is certainly simpler and quicker than a double fisherman's or a > figure eight and it is pretty easy to visually check. What's the > catch and why doesn't everyone use this knot? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Below is a copy of a letter that I E-mailed Rock and Ice tonight: Hello Rock and Ice, I was enjoying my newly arrived copy of R&I #76 and came across a bit of information that could be very dangerous if interpreted incorrectly by lesser experienced climbers. On page 114, in the midst of a rope comparison article, is a group of 3 photos of two ropes tied with an overhand knot. The accompanying text says, "The Overhand Knot is the best choice for joining two rappel ropes.,etc..." I assume the meaning of this statement is to use the overhand knot to join the LOOSE ends(to prevent rapping off of the ends) and not the UPPER ends of the ropes as would be required at the top of a two-rope rappel; the current standard being the double or triple fishermen's knot(sometimes called the grapevine knot) backed up by knotting the tails also. If anyone misunderstood this differentiation, the potential for danger is obvious. While I immediately knew the meaning intended in the photos, as would most anyone else, I felt that I should at least express my concerns. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- I have not yet received a reply, but I would definitely recommend NOT using an overhand knot to tie your rappel ropes together at the top. Use the overhand to tie the BOTTOM of the ropes to prevent rapping off of the ends. A much more substantial knot is required to safely tie the tops together to properly join the ropes for rappelling, in my opinion. If I receive a reply I will post the information. TradMan
In article <3275C9E4.1994@chattanooga.net> TradMan <tradman@chattanooga.net> writes: > Walt Heenan wrote: > > The latest issue of Rock and Ice > > shows a single overhand knot being used > > to join two rappel ropes. I've never seen this before. Does anyone > > have any experience with this knot? It's certainly easy to tie, and > > the claim is that it's less prone to snagging, easy to untie, and > > works well for ropes of disparate diameters. Why use anything else? > > > > It is certainly simpler and quicker than a double fisherman's or a > > figure eight and it is pretty easy to visually check. What's the > > catch and why doesn't everyone use this knot? > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Below is a copy of a letter that I E-mailed Rock and Ice tonight: > <snip TradMan's polite intro> > The accompanying text says, "The Overhand Knot is > the best choice for joining two rappel ropes.,etc..." <snip Tradman's assumption about the bottom end of the rope> >A much more substantial knot is required to safely tie the >tops together to properly join the ropes for rappelling >the current standard being the double or triple >fishermen's knot backed up by knotting the tails also. I have climbed with experienced climbers who like to use an overhand knot for joining the top ends of abseil (rappel) ropes, and I don't think that Tradman's panic is necessary. I'm not convinced that it's the best knot, but it doesn't have to be dangerous. It does have most of the advantages listed above, but it's really not much easier to tie that a fig-8. you do of course have to leave quite long tails or you're asking for trouble, and always check it before every pitch. Personally I prefer a double fisherman's, but it does abrade the rope much worse pulling through on multi-pitch abseils, my rope is now only 49m. Triple fisherman's sounds excessive to me If you can't trust your rope to hold good with a double fisherman's then perhaps you need a less slippery rope! I'm usually far more concerned by the faded old pieces of tape, rusty pitons, ice bollards or whatever is holding my nice strong rope to the rock. Best do routes with an easy descent. Now how do I tie in to lead a route? Should I use an overhand knot? Henry ----------- \\\__ __/// _______/oo___ Henry Lickorish / ____| ETH-Zurich | _____ / henry@erdw.ethz.ch || ||
TradMan wrote: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Below is a copy of a letter that I E-mailed Rock and Ice tonight: > > Hello Rock and Ice, > > I was enjoying my newly arrived copy of R&I #76 and came > across a bit of information that could be very dangerous if interpreted > incorrectly by lesser experienced climbers. On page 114, in the midst > of a rope comparison article, is a group of 3 photos of two ropes tied > with an overhand knot. The accompanying text says, "The Overhand Knot is > the best choice for joining two rappel ropes.,etc..." > I assume the meaning of this statement is to use the overhand > knot to join the LOOSE ends(to prevent rapping off of the ends) and notetc. Tradman - I know it seems like a totally inadequate knot, but it works great - I've used it hundreds of times. At least for knots, bigger is not necessarily better, and I think it's a *safer* knot (see below). The first couple of times I tried it, I tied a single overhand knot with long tails, then tied another overhand knot with the tails, and watched while my partner rapped to see if the knot "creeped" - I've never seen it happen. However, if you do this, untie the "backup" before you rap, because otherwise you have a really ugly knot that *will* get stuck. Why is it safer? Think of the risks involved: 1) Risk of correctly tied knot untying Just about 0 for any of the knots you might choose 2) Risk of tying knot incorrectly Overhand knot < any other knot The overhand is the easiest possible knot to tie. Which knot do you think would be easiest to tie in the dark, when you're tired, etc? 3) Risk of knot getting stuck, and you have to do something dangerous to get your rope back Overhand knot < any other knot Realistically, 2&3 are much more likely to get you in trouble than 1, and that's where the overhand knot clearly is better. Of course, your biggest risk is still probably rapping off the ends, so if you don't tie a knot in the ends it probably doesn't matter a whole lot what knot you use. YMMV. Tom Dunwiddie
In article <19961029165352125595@slip1178.rmii.com>, Clyde Soles <csoles@rmi.net> wrote: >Nope, I meant what it says...the overhand is the best knot of all for >tying two rappel ropes together at the top. I leave tails at least 9" >long and snug the knot as tight as I can. Your so-called standard knot >is much more prone to jamming in cracks, is a pain in the ass to untie, Can you, or anyone else, explain what makes this knot less likely to jam in a crack? Or alternatively, why other knots are more likely to jam? I'm having a bit of trouble visualizing it. >It's a bad idea to connect the bottom of the rappel ropes together; that >prevents them from unwinding and results in nasty tangles. A better way >IMHO is to put big knots in the end of each rope...just don't use >figure-8's and remember to untie them before pulling the rap ;-) Why not use a figure 8 here? (Not that I ever do -- an overhand is adequate for this task). -- +----------------------------------------------------------------------+ | David Blanchard NOAA/NSSL & OU/CIMMS Boulder, Colorado | | blanch@ncar.ucar.edu http://mrd3.mmm.ucar.edu/~dob/www/ | +----------------------------------------------------------------------+
In article <55685o$s9r@ncar.ucar.edu> dob@mrd3.mmm.ucar.edu (David O. Blanchard,,,) writes: >From: dob@mrd3.mmm.ucar.edu (David O. Blanchard,,,) >Subject: Re: Rappel knots (Possible dangerous situation!) >Date: 30 Oct 1996 00:40:24 GMT >In article <19961029165352125595@slip1178.rmii.com>, >Clyde Soles <csoles@rmi.net> wrote: >Can you, or anyone else, explain what makes this knot less likely to jam >in a crack? Or alternatively, why other knots are more likely to jam? >I'm having a bit of trouble visualizing it. The overhand knot has one flat surface so it can easerly slide over a crack where any of the veriations on a double fishermans is circular in crossection and so can fall into a crack much more easerly I have used both but only tend to use the overhand where I think I am going to have problems recovering the rope as it is a bit scarey. David Wright diw@mail.nerc-oxford.ac.uk It was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, C. Dickens A Tale of Two Citys
David O. Blanchard,,, wrote: > Can you, or anyone else, explain what makes this knot less likely to jam > in a crack? Or alternatively, why other knots are more likely to jam? > I'm having a bit of trouble visualizing it. > I will try: If you look at the picture in Rock and Ice you will notice that the overhand knot has one almost falt side when it is pulled apart. This means less snagging. Also. the knot, since it has one flat side, tends to roll over obstacles as opposed to getting caught. I have used this knot for 5 years now and it works really well.
For what it's worth, I have always used a double-fisherman's or a figure 8 knot to join rap ropes. I have been on several walls, and climbed with a lot of different people and I have never seen a single overhand knot used for this purpose. I suppose with long enough tails, it might be safe, but when it's my ass I would rather have the security of a knot that is less likely to come untied. Brendan
Brutus of Wyde (bbindner@ebmud.com) wrote: : A past issue of ANAM discussed an accident : where the knot slipped through a carabiner brake rappel, resulting in a : serious fall. As usual, it was a combination of factors [carabiner brake, : knot too small, lack of attention to rope remaining and reliance : on the knot] that caused the accident. The usual disclaimers apply. The 'Professional Rappellers' (TM pending) look at me funny, but I've never had a knot slip through my BD ATC. Don't even own a figure eight. Never tried to rappel using my gri-gri :-) Cheers, Ed Humphries
> Clyde Soles <csoles@rmi.net> wrote: > >Nope, I meant what it says...the overhand is the best knot of all for > >tying two rappel ropes together at the top. I leave tails at least 9" > >long and snug the knot as tight as I can. Your so-called standard knot > >is much more prone to jamming in cracks, is a pain in the ass to untie, > David Blanchard quizzed: > Can you, or anyone else, explain what makes this knot less likely to jam > in a crack? Or alternatively, why other knots are more likely to jam? > I'm having a bit of trouble visualizing it. As others in this thread have pointed out, the asymetric profile of the overhand rolls the knot away from contact with the rock, Additionally, it is a small knot when compared to others like the figure eight. Clyde also expounded: > >It's a bad idea to connect the bottom of the rappel ropes together; that > >prevents them from unwinding and results in nasty tangles. A better way > >IMHO is to put big knots in the end of each rope...just don't use > >figure-8's and remember to untie them before pulling the rap ;-) To which David pondered: > Why not use a figure 8 here? (Not that I ever do -- an overhand is > adequate for this task). Brutus chirps in: Has anyone else experienced figure eights untying themselves at the bottom of a rap, when using new, slick, stiff rope? and reflects: depending on the type of rappel device in use, the overhand can be a fatal knot to rely upon: Note Clyde's comment about big knots. A past issue of ANAM discussed an accident where the knot slipped through a carabiner brake rappel, resulting in a serious fall. As usual, it was a combination of factors [carabiner brake, knot too small, lack of attention to rope remaining and reliance on the knot] that caused the accident. The usual disclaimers apply. Brutus of Wyde Oakland, California
lanierb@econ.yale.edu (Lanier Benkard) wrote: >: TradMan wrote: >: > >: > Below is a copy of a letter that I E-mailed Rock and Ice tonight: >: > >: > Hello Rock and Ice, >: > >: > I was enjoying my newly arrived copy of R&I #76 and came >: > across a bit of information that could be very dangerous if interpreted >: > incorrectly by lesser experienced climbers. On page 114, in the midst >: > of a rope comparison article, is a group of 3 photos of two ropes tied >: > with an overhand knot. The accompanying text says, "The Overhand Knot is >: > the best choice for joining two rappel ropes.,etc..." >: > <snip> >R&I is correct (you may want to check your info next time before >flaming them!): This knot is UIAA approved for joining two rappel >ropes at the load bearing end. It can be your safest bet in >situations where a rope snag is a big risk because it is the least >likely knot to get stuck. Just for further information, some people >are tempted to tie instead an overhand figure-8 (as opposed to >follow-through figure-8), which I've heard has been shown to be not as >safe as the simple overhand shown by R&I in terms of coming untied. >Lanier Hmm, that's interesting. Why is the overhand Figure 8 not as safe as the overhand knot? The Figure 8 overhand was what was taught to me by my instructor over the summer. My partner and I have been using it all season, with no problems. Just wondering if there is anything wrong with this knot. Mark
Mark Schneider wrote: > > lanierb@econ.yale.edu (Lanier Benkard) wrote: > > >: TradMan wrote: > >: > > >: > Below is a copy of a letter that I E-mailed Rock and Ice tonight: > >: > > >: > Hello Rock and Ice, > >: > > >: > I was enjoying my newly arrived copy of R&I #76 and came > > Hmm, that's interesting. Why is the overhand Figure 8 not as safe as > the overhand knot? The Figure 8 overhand was what was taught to me by > my instructor over the summer. My partner and I have been using it all > season, with no problems. Just wondering if there is anything wrong > with this knot. > > Mark Mark, I'm not sure what you mean by an "overhand figure 8", but if you mean a figure 8 tied into two ropes held with the ends together, like the overhand is meant to be tied, then there is a problem. This knot can invert itself when loaded in a rappel situation. With each inversion, the knot moves a few inches towards the ends of the ropes and potentially off the ends of the ropes. Although a well cinched 8 will probably not do this under body weight (and undoubtedly some r.c.er's have rappelled this way) I prefer a knot that won't invert. Having once tried it and seen the knot inverting under minor loads, I wouldn't recommend it. John
TradMan wrote: > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------> > Below is a copy of a letter that I E-mailed Rock and Ice tonight: > > Hello Rock and Ice, snip > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I have not yet received a reply, but I would definitely recommend > NOT using an overhand knot to tie your rappel ropes together at the top. > Use the overhand to tie the BOTTOM of the ropes to prevent rapping off > of the ends. A much more substantial knot is required to safely tie the > tops together to properly join the ropes for rappelling, in my opinion. > If I receive a reply I will post the information. > > TradMan It is certainly appropriate to tie the lower ends of a doubled abseil rope together to prevent overshoot but having been introduced to the overhand as a method of joining ropes at the anchor, I must say I was very happy with it. It was shown to me after reaching the top of the NE face of the P. Badile, yer average slabs with rope-eating cracks every now and then. The rope was a lot more bouyant as a result of the knot which does indeed sit up and slide. As for any concern over it failing, check the knot each time you leave the belay. As has already been pointed out, the faded tat that gets used as an anchor is far more likely to fail than the knot... Happy abbing Duncan -- Duncan Irving Alpine and Periglacial Processes Earth Sciences UWC Cardiff & ETH Zurich
Copyright 2001, 2002 Walt Heenan
